Magnum One/Magnum One (Mid-American Digital) (Disc Manufacturing).iso/d27/discus3x.arc/AS400.THD

Text File | 1991-12-04 | 69KB | 877 lines

AS400.THD

The AS/400's Reason for Being.

Forum participants discuss the AS/400 and its reason for being. The machine is
compared to relatively inexpensive Unix workstations and PC clones. Also men-
tioned are compiler benchmarks and various languages.
.
.This is an ASCII file.  READ or DOWNLOAD with any supported protocol.
Upl: Anne E. Pruitt 72335,777

AS/400 MIDRANGE IBM DHRYSTONE CLONES UNIX RPG DMBS


#: 41324 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    04-Aug-90  21:30:42
Sb: #AS400
Fm: scott phillips 73457,2451
To: [F] All

Has anyone have experience with installing the AS400.... We are replacing an
IBM 8150 system with it.  I would like any comments regarding the AS400 PRO or
CON.   Where can I go to get some information on it?


Guy

#: 41355 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    05-Aug-90  03:32:37
Sb: #41324-AS400
Fm: Tim Smith 72711,215
To: scott phillips 73457,2451

Scott: I have installed two.  Depending on how your code is written, and how
you configure the system (hardware and software) you will find the AS/400 very
capable and fast.  The AS/400 excells in a transaction intensive situation. I
am sure if you can corner an IBM SE that is not wet behind the ears, they will
give you solid information.  Generally speaking you can not trust what an IBM
marketing person has to say about the AS/400, most of them were "Home-Ec", or
"Communications" majors the week before.  Any specific questions?  ---Tim

#: 41363 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    05-Aug-90  08:41:30
Sb: #41324-AS400
Fm: Ken Werner 76657,3373
To: scott phillips 73457,2451

I don't know what size of AS/400 you have in mind.

You might desire to wait a month for some announcements

Expected

1) on the small size, two models smaller than the B10 and packaged in a box
physically smaller than the B10.

2) on the large size, 192 meg real memory and a 20 gig/box DASD unit.

3) for all, a better C, mirror image DASD, plus more and better LANs


#: 41609 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    06-Aug-90  20:18:20
Sb: #41324-AS400
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: scott phillips 73457,2451

Scott

I love the 400.  It has a lot of capabilities.

OTOH I've only worked on IBM mini's, including the 400's predecessor, the
S/38, for the last eleven years.

Ask us some more specific questions.

Tony

#: 41656 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    07-Aug-90  00:28:41
Sb: #41324-AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: scott phillips 73457,2451

Our school district just bought an AS/400. By far the worst way they could
have spent their money. If you have code that'll ONLY run on this machine it's
OK but MUCH more computer for the money can be had elsewhere. It pays BIG to
look around with an open mind (and without an IBM rep). -Mike

#: 42136 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    09-Aug-90  08:08:14
Sb: #41656-AS400
Fm: Ken Werner 76657,3373
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

Mike,

It is what you looking for.

If you are looking for fast math and little I/O, Cray.

If you are looking for hardware and little software, VAX.

If you are looking for a VERY-VERY expensive machine which requires a systems
programming staff, takes an army of programmers to get anything done,
everything is an add on (security, data base) and proprietary software for the
machine is expensive, try a 30xx.   If I were a MIS Director and my corporate
status was based on the size of my budget, there is a good change I would get
a 30xx.

It you are looking for a co-processing family of machines from low end
(starting at $15,000) to ($2 million) a large 384meg main memory, 50 gig of
DASD, with security, single level storage, image, user friendly, requires
little systems programming, cost effective proprietary software, and is
productive for ad hoc requests and programmers, AS/400. If I were a MIS
Director and my corporate status was the level of cost effective service
provided clients (users), there is a good chance I would get an AS/400.

I acknowledge that you are likely correct.  There was too much dog-n-poney
shows going into the school's decision and not enough objective reviews. You
pay for what you get -- if you want fault tolerant DASD (a failure every 10
years) you pay a price.  If the machine can be down 1 day every 10 days, there
are cheaper machines than the AS/400 on the market.

#: 42297 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    09-Aug-90  23:38:36
Sb: #42136-#AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: Ken Werner 76657,3373

     Ken,
          I probably should have explained a bit more. We are a city of 15K
     (we call them cities in VT). The school system's needs are for
     accounting, payroll and administration. In as much as we needed a new
     computer AND have a DISMAL set of computer classes at the High School, I
     thought the new system could double as a teaching tool. In my humble
     opinion, a $400K AS/400 doesn't fit the bill. With regard to
     reliability, I'll put my neck out a bit and say that modern computer
     hardware is inherently reliable. I'm using an inexpensive AT&T Unix
     machine to write this. It uses single bit memory error detection (no
     correction) and a commercial MFM winchester. It runs 24/7 and has had no
     hardware failures in 3 years. There was 1 file system failure in the
     same period that was fixed with a 1 hour tape restore. I use it to write
     custom database software that is source compatible across hundreds of
     platforms ironically including the AS/400 4Q this year. There's lots of
     non-proprietary software for it and it can be made to perform like
     greased lightning in the math department if I need it to. In addition
     it's useful as a teaching tool because of the wide variety of languages,
     RDMS and applications that are available for it (and Unix in general). I
     guess what I'm saying is that I think we needed a more versatile
     computer solution and could have done better elsewhere especially for
     the price paid.

#: 42395 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    10-Aug-90  15:10:44
Sb: #42297-AS400
Fm: richard connelly 75470,1057
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

Mike, I missed the beginning of this thread but... must agree that the AS/400
is a system geared to low-tech system administrators...there is more software
available ala Unix than OS/400...Performance? the AS/400 is a cost performance
dog when compared to it's cousin the RS/6000. If I sound like a zealot about
the AS/400 it's because I can't understand how our company could (and still
is) sinking about a million in a stupid AS/400 model 60..When I think about
the kind of computer system I could have put together with that kind of cash.
The AS/400 should be avoided, when you see an AS/400 in a shop, typically that
shop is run by non-degreed or RPG only programmers or IBM stock holders. I
wish people could see what a really lowsey cost/perforance machine it is.
-Richard

#: 42540 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    11-Aug-90  01:28:02
Sb: #42395-#AS400
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: richard connelly 75470,1057

Richard

I don't agree with your statements about the avoiding the AS/400 but I'm more
interested in why you make the statement about 'non-degreed or RPG only pgmrs
...'  Does this mean that if I don't have a degree I don't have a clue what I
am doing?  That if I only understand RPG I'm a useless programmer/analyst?

Tony

#: 42630 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    11-Aug-90  19:11:35
Sb: #42540-#AS400
Fm: James W. McMann 71270,2734
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552 (X)

Tony; Forget it. The IBM AS/400 is a GOOD general business systems computer.
The business decisions for using that platform can not be weighed on  the
basis of MIPS. If that was the case we sould all have CRAY PC's. There will be
somewhere close to 105,000 AS/400's worldwide. I personally have know
companies that have bought dozens. Microsoft, Apple, Neilson Cadbury, etc have
degrees longer thatn my arm and they have seen fit to use the system
personally I am tired of people bashing the AS/400. RPG is a good general
business processing language. The people who complain the lohdest about it are
the Unix C programmers that think the world revolves around pointers and the
shell. I write in RPG III, PL/I, Cobol, C, Pascal, Assembler oh hell lets just
say that the best language is the best language to get the done. If I want to
write a rreport I use RPG. If I want to write a parser or some string
manipolatioon program I write in PL/I. If I want to port the code to another
environment I write in Cobol. There are good reasons to argue that any
language is the best language. The only person I feel sorry for is the
programmer that knows ONE language. Anyone that argues that the AS/400 is a
bad computer only prooves that they don't know what they are talking about. I
personally don't know why a High School would install an AS/400 for teaching.
But that does not make the AS/400 a bad computer. All that it proves is that a
good computer was purchased for the wrong reasons. Anyone disagreeing with me
about this is welcome to come to my office and have a cup of coffee and
explain it to me. By the way just because a programmer doesn't have a CS
degree does not mean that he doesn't know how to program. A degree is an
outward symbol stating that one has attained knowledge. That information can
be garnered from many places. As long as a person can attain mastery or
atlease a good (atleast) measure of skill in his caraft who is to say that
person can not program. It's come to pass just recently that CS programs would
begin to explore business needs. Hell when was the last time you or anyone
else

#: 42637 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    11-Aug-90  20:08:10
Sb: #42630-AS400
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: James W. McMann 71270,2734

James

I agree with you on all your points.  Indeed our local technical college, (2
year degree) is purchasing an AS/400 to help train programmers on RPG III and
the AS/400.  They know there is a good market and are trying to fill the void.

I don't have a degree of any type and I mostly know RPG although I've done a
little work in other languages.  I guess I was just tired of seeing someone
bash the AS/400 and making sweeping generalizations about degrees, RPG and IBM
stocks.

Actually one of the interesting points was 'I can put together a system ...'
And that's one of the key points of the AS/400.  You don't need to buy an
editor from this company, a data-base handler from that one, a communications
handler from C, a compiler from D and a server product from E.  While IBM's
are not state of the art and they do have bugs they are reasonably sturdy.

Tony

#: 42847 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    12-Aug-90  22:47:53
Sb: #42395-AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: richard connelly 75470,1057

Hi Richard,
          I can't figure out how these decisions are made. In the case of my
school district, the decision was so illogical that there must have been
something else going on. Whatever it was, I'm sufficiently naive in matters of
politics that I missed it. Sadly, it's the students and the taxpayers who take
it on the chin (as usual).

#: 42970 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    13-Aug-90  20:14:08
Sb: #42630-#AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: James W. McMann 71270,2734

Gentlemen, It wasn't my intention to stir up a hornets nest but I'd like to
add my  02.
I didn't mean to imply that the AS/400 is a "bad" computer anymore than
RPG is a "bad" language. However, the facts are that AS/400 hardware is
hopelessly out of date and that I can write more high quality business code in
a day using a 4GL than with RPG in a week. It's obviously impossible for
current AS/400-RPG shops to trash their investments but I can't visualize any
reason to recommend the setup to NEW customers. Although the ultimate
responsibility for the AS/400 purchase at my school district - a VERY
expensive mistake - lies with our elected school board, IBMs' sales force
doesn't stand blameless. I am a non-degreed professional and apologize to know
one for the fact. In addition, I HAVE paid a price for my stance with regard
to using 20 year old hardware/software by passing up RPG & COBOL jobs on IBM
S/xxs and AS/400s. With regard to the Apple reference; if the "insanely
greats" at Corporate Apple were FORCED to use their OWN computers they might
one day make something worth purchasing. Keep a smile on yall!

#: 43021 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    14-Aug-90  07:37:46
Sb: #42970-AS400
Fm: Ken Werner 76657,3373
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

What did you have in mind when you said "... the facts are that AS/400
hardware is hopelessly out of date..."?

A large number of AS/400 shops use COBOL or PL/I as their base language. RPG
and AS/400 are not one and the same.

BTW the current RPG III is dead.  A new RPG is on the way.  It should show
more 4GL features.

There are a number of school districts using AS/400s for administrative
information processing.  So, your school district might have some proprietary
software in mind and need the AS/400.

#: 43042 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    14-Aug-90  09:48:13
Sb: #42395-AS400
Fm: Tom Quinn 71101,3176
To: richard connelly 75470,1057

I've found this thread very interesting, and have wondered myself why the
AS/400 is so highly touted.  I keep hearing about the thousands of
applications available, but it appears to me like they are all database
applications.  It's a matter of sematics I suppose, but I count all of these
as just one application - the database system itself.  The problem my company
has had with its AS/400's is that the users are clammoring for applications
like word processing, graphics, statistical analysis, calendar management,
electronic forums, spreadsheets, etc.  AS/400 offerings are either severly
limited, or non-existant.  As a result, the AS/400 is used for printing
paychecks and other pure business/financial database applications while users
are building PC and MAC LANS, or buying VAX's to do their "real" work. It
seems to me that it would make more sense to buy more general purpose
computers that could handle all of these applications, not just the narrow
database niche.  Lastly,  in my opinion, the AS/400 lacks a good enduser query
system and users find it very difficult to manipulate the data in a meaninful
way.  Typically people download raw data to a PC and use PC based software to
manipulate it.  There's even a local Fortune 500 company that nightly copies
the AS/400 data to a VAX so the users can use Oracle to manipulate it.

#: 43223 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    14-Aug-90  23:56:55
Sb: #43021-#AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: Ken Werner 76657,3373

Ken, although I'm currently doing custom 4GL database work, I come from a
hardware & OS background. When I first heard that the school district was
considering an AS/400, I reviewed it from that perspective. The RFB presented
by IBM conveniently provided performance figures down to memory cycle timing.
Although such information was of no use to school district administration
personnel or the school board, I found it interesting. AS/400 architecture is
interesting but from a price/performance point of view it just doesn't make it
today. The I/O sub-system performance is quick but CPU/memory performance is
very poor for a machine in this price range. I was especially disappointed to
find that there is no way to improve CPU performance short of "gluing" more of
the same together (very expensive). None of this really surprised me much
considering when the AS/400 series was designed and the group involved. The
design philosophy is much like the S/xx series except that little thought was
given to backward compatibility (software or hardware). My point in all this
is not "AS/400 bashing" but simply that see no reason why a customer, not
already committed to the platform, would consider it except that your point
concerning proprietary software is well taken but in the case of school
districts, there's plenty of non proprietary software around so I don't think
it applies. Further, the decision makers in my school district are computer
illiterate - not a jab, simply a fact. They have some understanding of what
needs to be done but not any ideas concerning how to go about it (other than
those supplied by IBM). Clearly their decision to go with IBM was made because
they thought it was the "safe" thing to do and as such relieved them of the
reasonability of actually looking into the matter and making an informed
decision. It's my view that that kind of decision making is inappropriate and
unacceptable especially when > $300K is involved. Interestingly, this purchase
didn't go to bid and I believe there was federal money involved so I'm
thinking seriously of bringing challenge. BTW Progress - my favorite
4Gl has announced an AS/400 port for 4Q this year. For me that renders the
RPG/COBOL issue mute although I'd still need a reason to recommend the
platform to new customers.

#: 43248 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    15-Aug-90  02:59:23
Sb: #43224-AS400
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

Mike

Which 4GL is that?

Tony

#: 43249 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    15-Aug-90  02:59:29
Sb: #43042-AS400
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Tom Quinn 71101,3176 (X)

Tom

FWIW, there is now a product which works in conjunction with Windows 3.0,
AS/400 PC Support and Excel.  When you open a spreadsheet which has links to
the 400 defined in it, it will automatically go to the /400 and update the
spread sheet.

I realize that to many folks this is just a small attempt at making a purse,
(not even silk) out of a sow's ear but I thought I'd mention it. <g>

Tony

#: 43284 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    15-Aug-90  10:47:28
Sb: #42970-AS400
Fm: Sam Lennon 75410,3277
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

There are several good 4GLs for the AS/400, some of which are really lower
CASE products, so you can get away with relatively little RPG programming.
Synon and AS/SET both generate RPG code, so the resulting applications are
compiled and not dependent on any runtime modules.  You might want to look
into these.

#: 43460 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    15-Aug-90  22:24:13
Sb: #43284-AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: Sam Lennon 75410,3277 (X)

Progress, an excellent 4GL from Progress Software Corp. Has announced an
AS/400 port for 4Q this year. The source from Progress is portable across
several hundred platforms and is my personal favorite.

#: 43463 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    15-Aug-90  22:34:23
Sb: #43248-#AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552 (X)

Sorry Tony, I got cut of at line 30ish. The 4GL is Progress from Progress
Software Corp. Source is portable across several hundred platforms including
MSdos & MANY Unix boxes. I've been using it for years and get excellent
support. It's easy enough for end-users to use yet really performs in the
hands of a database designer. Progress also allows calls to user C programs.
In as much as Progress is written in C I assume there must be a C compiler
that runs on the AS/400. I'll reserve comments until I get a chance to see how
the port performs. Although Progress generally doesn't do ports that won't
work well, they DID do one for Apple's AU/X which turned out to be a dog due
to lack of hardware support. The port was for the MACII which simply doesn't
have the hardware to support more than one user under Unix (or anything else
for that matter).

#: 43501 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    16-Aug-90  01:40:25
Sb: #43463-AS400
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

Mike

I understand, but this is only rumours, that Oracle have thier product running
on the 400 but it's too slow to be practical.

FWIW, I also understand, but I could be wrong, that IBM even has some of the
DB indexing and indexed record read instructions at the hardware level.

Tony

#: 43730 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    16-Aug-90  22:59:26
Sb: #43501-#AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552 (X)

I think you may be right Tony. I expect that to get Oracle running on the
AS/400, there REALLY must be a C compiler. Unfortunately, all of the non-IBM
"big" machine specific RDMS require considerable CPU horse power and that's
not the AS/400's cup'o'tea. That is my major complaint about the machine... no
math, no way to do graphics, ETC. There's only so much you can do shifting
data around without CPU intervention. I'm told that the BIG IBM mainframe that
the state uses gets used mainly as a BIG hard disk. That is they keypunch the
stuff in and then use Altos, Tandy, DEc and others to do something useful with
what's there. Heck it's getting so obvious that even the "if it ain't a
mainframe - it ain't a computer" types are admitting what's going on. Seems
like the LONG way around the planet to me but what di I know! I am taking
steps (VERY unpopular) I suspect, to ensure that ALL of my school district
computer purchases go to bid. They just got done buying a bunch of REAL IBM
PCs. No bids went out. You wouldn't believe what they paid! To top it all off
we've got a Radio Shack right down the road. If Tandy's clones are good enough
for DEC to private label them then they sure are good enough for my school
district. I'd like the difference in price in MY pocket! I guess if you get
used to the idea that it ain't YOUR money this is what happens. These people
need more supervision than the students - NO JOKE. PS.. The new PCs are hooked
to a Novell network - this in an office where a GOOD day is when everyone can
figure out where the on/off switch is on their terminal. Ought to be VERY
interesting.

#: 43756 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    17-Aug-90  01:15:27
Sb: #43730-#AS400
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627 (X)

Mike

I understand the IBM has added floating point h/w on their B35 and B45's. They
snuck it under the covers. There are signs of additional increased support for
floating point, etc.

I certainly do agree with you about the prices on IBM's PC's but Tandy's have
their quirks too.

Tony

#: 44033 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    19-Aug-90  00:33:43
Sb: #43756-#AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552 (X)

Glad to hear about increased FP support from IBM. Does this mean past
customers will be able to upgrade? I know what you mean about Tandy but the
purpose (so stated) for the computer lab is to teach word processing and
spread sheets. In fact the only software ordered with the setup (other than
Novell) was Microsoft Works. I think Tandys would fit just fine. Actually if
they're as strapped for cash as they say they are, throw away clones would be
just fine. The point I was tring to make was that the computer decisions are
being made by people who shouldn't. If things continue IBM will OWN the school
district. HEY maybe that's not a bad idea. IBMs training programs are
EXCELLENT and they DO run the place like a business. Food for thoug!


#: 44043 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    19-Aug-90  07:12:09
Sb: #43463-AS400
Fm: James W. McMann 71270,2734
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

Mike; Starting to feel like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs? You will
probably see allot more of AS/400 in schools. I understand that IBM has
instituted a program where schools can get the boxes for free if they promise
to offer classes on programming and operations (If I remember the information
correctly). Well to respond to progress there may be a C compiler for the
AS/400 but it sure isn't the one sold by IBM. The third party compiler isn't
that great either. Progress may be able to port after the announcement on the
21st. Hopefully IBM will announce a really good C compiler for the 400 that
performs. Jim McMann

#: 44044 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    19-Aug-90  07:16:47
Sb: #43730-AS400
Fm: James W. McMann 71270,2734
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

Mike; Personally I would insist that any PC vendor that wishes to submit a bid
be able to provide a system that has a non proprietary bus architecture that
would allow expandability through multiple vendors. Radio shack is easy to
buy, but you will pay a mint to keep them running and upgrade them as time
goes on. Jim McMann

#: 44045 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    19-Aug-90  09:16:40
Sb: #44035-AS400
Fm: Ken Werner 76657,3373
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552

My understanding is that the B series will not have FP hardware till next
year.  I am not sure if the later announced C series and 35 & 45 have FP
hardware now or not.

Further, it is my understanding that the announced FORTRAN will use software
on every model till FP hardware is announced next year.

Ken

#: 44083 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    19-Aug-90  14:49:25
Sb: #44045-AS400
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Ken Werner 76657,3373 (X)

Ken

My understanding, from the August issue of News 3X/400 is that the 35 & 45
have FP hardware.  As my cleaning service threw that issue out I can't check
for details of the C series. :(

Tony

#: 44313 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    20-Aug-90  22:01:06
Sb: #44043-#AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: James W. McMann 71270,2734

Jim; More like a cat in a room filled with PEOPLE in rocking chairs who were
told (by some guy in a blue suit) that this was was best way to travel from
New York to Frisco. It doesn't surprise me hat IBM would give the machines to
schools but that kind of help is no help at all. IBM's gonna have to do
something to improve CPU performance before any C compiler will work well. I
personally think they ought to just forget it. There are plenty of resonably
priced machines that do a good job. I wonder if it's too big a leap to simply
admit that the days of machines like the AS/400 are simply GONE - except for
the installed base.

#: 44348 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    21-Aug-90  01:14:02
Sb: #44313-AS400
Fm: Stephen Kent 72207,1013
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

Mike, I'm just curious... have you actually worked on any AS/400's. I seem to
remember earlier in this thread that you were quoting literature and specs.

My own experience is that the 400 does a pretty good job for what it's
intended to do.  Yeah, it needs tons of memory but so do many systems.  My own
preference is PC based networks but there are places where I'd rather have a
400 behind it all.

#: 44817 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    23-Aug-90  11:18:35
Sb: #44043-AS400
Fm: richard connelly 75470,1057
To: James W. McMann 71270,2734

James, FYI, I have both the "IBM" C/400 & the other guy's compiler "diploma
C". The results of non Floating point benchmarks are what makes me ill. -rc

#: 44818 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    23-Aug-90  11:18:45
Sb: #44313-AS400
Fm: richard connelly 75470,1057
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

Mike, as I told James W. McMann [71270,2734], I have both C compilers for the
AS/400 on a model B50 "soon to be a 60 because nothing gets done fast". If you
are familiar with the dhrystone benchmark that tests a compiler for integer
math,function calls & instruction efficentcy, well here are the results of the
Dhrystones using IBM's C AS/400 B50 = 735 dhrystones/sec. My lowly AMI 386-33
using Turbo C 2.0 = 10,000 dhrystones/sec. To say that the C compiler & AS/400
are not to powerful is an understatement. The AS/400 benchmark was with no
load on the system ( I was the only user, no uneccesary subsystems were
running, I had the entire machine to myself). The diploma C compiler, well it
will compile the ANSI C benchmark but it just loops forever when you run the
code??  Also, on the subject of clones, at the company I work for, we have
just purchased 50 AMI 386 20's & 33's with not a return. When we purchase IBM,
usually 50% go back the day of installation. Remember, just my opinion. -rc

#: 44819 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    23-Aug-90  11:18:52
Sb: #44348-AS400
Fm: richard connelly 75470,1057
To: Stephen Kent 72207,1013

Gota but in...Stephen, just exactly what will an AS/400 do that a Compaq
Systempro running NW 386 3.0 using SQL database?? Or for that matter how about
an RS/6000 which usually costs .5 the price of a similar equipt AS/400 with
about 5000 times the CPU horse power... -rc

#: 44820 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    23-Aug-90  11:18:59
Sb: #44035-AS400
Fm: richard connelly 75470,1057
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552

Beware of IBM announcements... Yes they are "BIG" usuall big on hype short on
real life results...Remember what a revolutionary machine the AS/400 was
suppose to be?

#: 44902 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    23-Aug-90  20:05:25
Sb: #44819-AS400
Fm: Steve Gayner 76424,3340
To: richard connelly 75470,1057

Richard,

If I can jump in here for a sec.

>> what will an as/400 do that other systems can't ?

Well, if I have 1000 applications written in RPG running on a System/36, I can
just run them on the AS/400. No changes (or minor, anyway) for the user
community or the application programming staff. Same is true if I am coming
from a S/38 environment. I also continue to run my data processing in a data
center with all of the attendant security I had before instead of putting my
application on PC-type machines with little or no security, backup,
administration, etc. If you are not looking to rewrite applications, it may be
the best solution.

I am not a huge fan of AS/400s, but there are places where they play very
strongly. IBM is now working with (pushing, if you prefer) vendors to produce
more application software for the machine. Major mainframe applications are
being ported/rewritten for that environment. For one example (perhaps not the
best), SAP will be available soon, from what I hear. SAP is a full function
accounts receivable, payable, inventory, personnel, warehouse, shipping,
billing, etc, etc, etc system. I don't think there is anything remotely near
that available on LAN-based (or PC-type - I don't know what to call that class
of machines generically) processors.

OK, said my piece. Thanks for listening.

Steve

#: 44934 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    23-Aug-90  22:31:49
Sb: #44348-AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: Stephen Kent 72207,1013

No I haven't actually worked on an AS/400 system Stephen. Normally I'd be more
than a little embarrassed to say anything +/- about something I haven't tried
but in the case of computers things are a bit different. I come from a
hardware background and am well familiar with machine architectures similar to
the AS/400. They directly reflect a time when powerful CPUs were considered
secondary to I/O mainly because there weren't many of them around. Things in
this business change quickly and no attempt was made to keep the AS/400
current. In defense of IBM, why bother, sales were good and they could sell
upgrades almost forever once a customer is committed to the platform. In
addition I think a good argument can be made that the AS/400 is extremely
reliable. However, as I've said before, I think today's computer hardware is
inherently reliable except when poor design is involved as with the power
supply/sweep board in the Apple MAC (I think they've finally got that fixed
after 5+ years of premature failures). My point is that I just can't find any
reason why a NEW customer would consider an AS/400 especially a school system
where software requirements are mainstream.

#: 44935 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    23-Aug-90  22:33:28
Sb: #44818-AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: richard connelly 75470,1057

Well Richard, the AS/400 dhrystone figures are no surprise to me. Most modern
languages require reasonable CPU performance. My AT&T 3B1 also easily
out-performs the AS/400. It's a Motorola 68010 machine @ 10 MHZ. As one would
expect the AS/400 out-performs my machine in the I/O department. On the other
hand, any modern multi-user machine using EDSI or SCSI I/O sub-systems would
leave the AS/400 in the dust. So here we sit with current $15K machines vastly
out-performing a $200K++ AS/400. It's really as simple as that. As far as
clones go, I have no problem with them at all except that it would be REAL
NICE if a few were manufactured in the USA. I am unaware of reliability
problems with IBM PCs and am rather surprised at your comment. I really see no
reason to buy REAL IBM PCs anyway so I don't deal with them very often. BTW, I
suspect that the only reason Progress decided to do a port to the AS/400 was
that they have a customer or two who committed to large purchases of the port.
They may wish they'd been a bit more cautious (Progress is written in C). I'm
still waiting on info from my school district concerning their computer
purchasing practices or lack thereof.

#: 44937 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    23-Aug-90  23:07:30
Sb: #44313-AS400
Fm: James W. McMann 71270,2734
To: Mike Barton 71725,1627

Mike; The death of the AS/400 is not going to be soon. Just because it does
not run C as fast as you like does not make the machine a dog. The simple fact
is that the machine fits the needs of the companies that use it. The largest
users of AS/400's todate is manufacturing and distribution companies. They do
not need graphics workstations nor are they overly concerned with C. A
language is just a way to impliment a system. I for one do not beleave that
standard data manipulation systems, (accounting, Purchasing, AR, AP, etc)
should not be written in C. RPGIII works but is almost as hard to read a year
later as C. If I had to maintain a large system I would probably look at
COBOL. It is old, but my wife, a devout non-computer person can understand it.
I beleave that the AS/400 of today is a transition machine. IBM has targeted
cooperative processing as the strategy of the future. Mini's frontended by
PC's that can perform graphics oriented processing but leave batch, security,
network management printing, etc to the AS/400++. It seems reasonable to me.
PC's and workstations are getting more powerful, but the hardware is not of
the same quality and longevity as the Mini's. It's easy to prove if you
examine the prices of maintenance agreement prices. When you have to pay an
annual cost of a new drive as the cost of the service agreement, something is
wrong. Support of LANS is even more difficult to get these days. As far as I
was concerned until X Windows, Unix was not for the weak at heart. After all
this I look back to the first TRS-80 the Radio Shack produced. The first Apple
IIe that I owned. Kaypro's, wow 4mz CPU 64Kram and two 360K drives, I was in
heaven. It all serves to remind me that computers, the medium that we all use
to earn a living is changing so rapidly that no matter what I saw here, it
will all change tomorrow. The AS/400 came about because of the System/38.
According to IBM out of all the computers that IBM makes, the System/38 had
the most loyal users. There must be a reason. Microsoft, Apple, 25,000+ can't
be all wrong. Jim McMann

#: 44940 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    23-Aug-90  23:23:25
Sb: #44818-AS400
Fm: James W. McMann 71270,2734
To: richard connelly 75470,1057

Richard; You made an excellent choice on the AMI boards. Their great! Solid,
reliable and fast. What more could you ask for. A fast C compiler, it will
happen, floating point will make it faster. Faster than the PC? no, probably
not. The real issue is the database performance. That, along with reliability,
IBM support, the availability of the software that you want to run and any
existing reliance on RPG are just a few of the reasons to buy. Mainframe
people (estimated 13% of the AS/400 market) pay something a million dollars a
year for VM and all the systems stuff for a large mainframe. I personally know
of several that have paid for their AS/400's the first year. Eliminated 75% of
their support staff. They were intelligent. It is a good solution for the
right problem. The AS/400 is not a good solution for all problems. To say that
it is a bad solution for all problems just discredits the speaker. Jim McMann

#: 44941 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    23-Aug-90  23:27:10
Sb: #44817-AS400
Fm: James W. McMann 71270,2734
To: richard connelly 75470,1057

Richard, I've tried Diploma C myself ans was not impressed. If I want math
functions, pointers, etc. I use PL/I. Hopefully IBM will actually deliver that
faster better lemon scented C compiler they talked about in the trades. Until
then MOVE '1'   *INLR That means bye for now, Jim McMann

#: 45278 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    25-Aug-90  22:49:57
Sb: #44819-AS400
Fm: Stephen Kent 72207,1013
To: richard connelly 75470,1057

I'm a little slow getting back to your Thursday message.  You said:

"just exactly what will an AS/400 do that a Compaq Systempro running NW 386
3.0 using SQL database?? Or for that matter how an RS/6000...."

Actually I tend to agree with you.  We're IBM Business Partners and we were
agents for about 18 months.  As agents we were supposed to sell AS/400's.  I
was having a terrible time justifying them!

But there are cases where the 400 seems appropriate.  I've spent years in the
"mid-range" world where typical clients have quarter million item inventories
supported by lots of files and data structures and from 20 to 250 terminals.
These sites may not need a true mainframe but they may be too big for a 386
based LAN.

And I deal with clients who are upgrading existing mid-range systems. They're
used to "big iron" and have a difficult time relating to "PC's". Sometimes
it's a misplaced gut reaction but it might also be a case of justifying their
budget.  It hardly looks good to replace a $750k system with a $50k one that
works better!

(btw, we often steer clients away from your "Compaq Systempro with NW 386" for
the same reason you're using;  they just DON'T NEED IT!  They can use a much
less expensive system linked with INET and do more than they need. I get
really incensed when a computer store sells a full blown Novell net to someone
who just wanted to share a couple of printers!)

#: 45668 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    27-Aug-90  22:22:53
Sb: #44937-#AS400
Fm: Mike Barton 71725,1627
To: James W. McMann 71270,2734

Jim; I'm afraid that I've been misunderstood. I am not prophesying the death
of the AS/400 nor am I particularly fond of C. I referenced the C benchmarks
because they give a very good indication of CPU and I/O performance. For
whatever IBM's design reasoning, the AS/400 doesn't deliver in these areas in
a cost effective manner. I think C is MUCH to strange to be used to implement
applications such as GL, AR, AP, etc. In my opinion, a 4GL is a much better
way to go. Ask your wife if this code fragment (from Progress) makes sense to
her: for each customer where lname begins("Bar") by zip:
  display customer with 2 columns title " Customer List " frame cust. end.
This COMPLETE procedure produces a tastefully formatted customer list to the
screen. Add, as the first line, 'output to printer.' and you get a printed
report. BTW, in my experience, women are VERY good at defining problems and
with 4GLs the stretch between definition and solution can be very short
indeed. I don't agree with your comments concerning the difference in quality
between minis, mainframes and PCs. It simply hasn't been the case in my
experience. If one was to look, one would find many of the same parts from the
same suppliers in ALL computers. IBM doesn't make SSI & MSI TTL so they gotta
buy like everyone else. More than superficial in house testing is a waste of
money because from the supplier's point of view it's simply cheaper to make
the best quality parts ALL the time for EVERYONE. I agree with your comments
about LANs. If a customer needs a multi-user computer then that's what he
ought to buy. I have yet to find an end-user who could properly administer a
LAN, though some DO like to play, or a multi-user system. From a vendor's
point of view, it's a whole lot easier to dial into a Unix system and straiten
things out than to try to figure out what they've done to the LAN - THIS TIME.

From a cost/performance point of view I think a Unix system is a much better
solution to the batch, security, printer management issue IF you don't already
own an AS/400. My first "real computer" was a TRS-80 Model I - I had to wait
in line for one at ~1K. However, I learned just as much about programming from
playing with my first programmable calculator - a TI-56. In fact, I think they
would be an EXCELLENT first step for students. There's no way to crank-up the
latest version of flight simulator (a big PLUS) but you do learn a lot about
algorithms and programming in general. The newer programmable from HP are very
powerful indeed and much cheaper than buying a bunch of Apple IIGSs (you see a
lot of them in the work place!) - a favorite pastime at my school district.
It'll be fun to see where the industry goes - never a dull moment. -Mike